Some time ago a Calvinist angrily said that there is no such thing as free will in the Bible. He was seriously wrong.
Free will is found throughout the Bible. Every time God gives a command, that command speaks to our free will. Every time Scripture says receive, repent, turn, believe, trust, have faith, call on the name of the Lord, it is speaking of man’s free will.
If man does not have free will:
1. Then men are robots and puppets, doing only what they are instructed, or hard wired, to do.
2. Then God is the author of sin. Some actually openly agree with this statement.
3. Then God does not love everyone; some people God wants to go to Hell.
4. Then God is mocking man, who has no ability to choose, when He commands him to choose, repent, believe, accept.
Without free will, this world becomes a fatalistic puppet show.
I recently told a fellow pastor of how two strong Calvinists had now become atheists. The pastor replied, “There’s not much difference between the two.” I would not go that far, but some have noticed the similarity between hard determinism (man has no free will) and atheistic fatalism. As Kenneth Keathley, author of “Salvation and Sovereignty,” said, “Most determinists are not Calvinists, but atheists and Muslims.”
A few quotes on free will:
“I just happen to believe that God is sovereign enough that He can make a man totally free if He wishes to do so.” -Paige Patterson, president, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, TX, SBC president.
“Now, if you say that only certain people are elect and only certain people, therefore, can be saved, you take all the ‘whosever’s’ in the Bible and make them a lot of mumbo jumbo. The Bible is full of ‘whosoever will.’”
On Matthew 23:37, “Now, friend, if they could not rather than they would not, this is the biggest charade in history. Jesus is weeping salty tears, and He said, ‘I would, but you would not.’ That’s not unconditional election.”
-Adrian Rogers, SBC president and pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, TN.
“Indeed, it is manifest that every call, every threat, every expostulation, every exhortation in the Bible supposes that man is a free agent. If he be not free, if he be the passive victim of inexorable, irresistible destiny, the Sacred Volume is a compilation of glaring inconsistencies--of sheer downright falsehood and mockery...
If we attempt to explain and reconcile the doctrines of predestination and free agency, we find impassable barriers hemming us in, and sharp adamant striking us back. Their harmony we must leave with God.”
-Richard Fuller, Predestination; 1885. Quoted by Peter Lumpkins at SBCTommorrow. Fuller was president of the SBC. He was a strong Calvinist who also believed in the free will of man.
“And yet, and yet, with us down here in this world, there's no violation of our moral integrity, or our free choice, or the sovereignty of our own lives. The two go together. The great decree of Almighty God leaves me absolutely and perfectly free. I am not bound; I am at liberty. The decree of God has in it my own free choice, and the two are not antagonistic. They go together in the will of God.”
-W. A. Criswell, SBC president, pastor of First Baptist Church, Dallas, TX.
“Reasons that make free will important:
* Without free will, how can we be truly responsible for our actions?
* Without free will, what truth is there in words of praise for another’s efforts, courage or creativity? If the person is simply reacting chemically and has no choice in his or her actions, then such praise is meaningless.
* Without free will, we cannot have any measure of dignity over any other aspect of nature. There is nothing special about being just another cog in a machine.
* Without free will, what value is there to the love we have for another? Similarly, what value is there in friendship? Love is simply one set of chemical reactions to another’s chemical reactions.”
“Scripture has revealed that people are bearers of God’s image. God did not make us mere machines. We have the ability to choose that makes us morally responsible.”
-W. Mark Lanier, Christianity on Trial, IVP; 2014.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, December 16, AD 2014.
You may be interested in these brief books:
“Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!” by Adrian Rogers
“An Examination of TULIP” by R. L. Sumner
“What is Calvinism?” by Peter Lumpkins
Other articles:
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
Roy Fish on Calvinism; part 1 of 2
10 Commandments for Christmas
More articles in lower right margin.
Showing posts with label Reformed Baptists. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Reformed Baptists. Show all posts
Tuesday, December 16, 2014
Monday, March 4, 2013
Dr. Roy Fish on Calvinism, Predestination; part 2 of 2
Predestination and Foreknowledge
Scripture plainly teaches that predestination, which means to destine beforehand, is based on foreknowledge. God chose those whom He knew beforehand would choose Him! That’s why Paul said, in Romans 8:29-30 in that tremendous passage, “For whom He foreknew…” You’d better start where Paul starts. “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…” But He predestines on the basis of foreknowledge! The same thing is said in I Peter 1:2...
God elects, God predestines on the basis of knowing beforehand. That’s what the word “foreknowledge” means. I’ve checked it out in the Greek. It just means God knows what’s going to happen.
I had the privilege, last Saturday flying from DFW to Atlanta, I had the privilege of sitting by a schoolteacher who is going to Germany to be a teacher at one of our English-speaking schools in a military area of Germany. And she had a church background. But she had a deep deep disturbance in her soul. In fact, she was so deeply disturbed that she went to a chaplain there and told him how deeply disturbed she was, but she didn’t get any satisfaction or any peace. Well, needless to say, that kind of situation to a professor of evangelism means “Sick ‘em.” Excuse me for my failure in decorum and dignity there. But I knew that God was dealing with this lady. Her heart was hungry and open. See, God knew the situation. She said, “It’s sheer accident that I’m in this seat. I’m supposed to be in another seat.” But God knew the hunger of her heart. And God knew that she was ready for the message of Jesus. And He took all of the factors regarding her background, her hunger, and He chooses to use a vessel that was committed to Him to share the gospel. And sometimes I’m not that vessel that I want to be. And that is God’s way of demonstrating His election.
God elects and God foreordains and God predestines, but on the basis of foreknowledge.
Limited Atonement
The L in the TULIP stands for Limited Atonement, or Limited Love, or Particular Redemption. It really says that God did not love all men enough to have Christ die for all. It says that God didn’t care about the non-elect. He loved only those who would respond to Him in repentance.
I was discussing with an adamant Calvinist one day this very subject. He is a man of God but he doesn’t give 2 cents for the non-elect. He’s not interested in them. He couldn’t care less. I said, “You mean God doesn’t love them?” He said, “No, God doesn’t love them. He doesn’t love the non-elect.” I said to him, “Do you believe that the rich young ruler was one of the non-elect?” He said, “Yeah. He flatly turned down the Lord Jesus Christ. He turned Him down. He was one of the non-elect.” So I just turned my Bible to Mark 10. I said, “I want you to read this and stuff it in your Hyper-Calvinistic pipe!” The Bible says that when Jesus looked on the rich young ruler who was just about ready to reject Him, when Jesus looked on him, He loved him! And that word “love” is the same word that’s used in John 3:16. It’s the famous Greek word, “agape”! Jesus looked on this lost person and He loved him! And you will never pass a person on the streets of Mobile that God doesn’t love. You will never rub shoulders with anybody in a crowded shopping center that God does not love.
Limited atonement almost brings me to the point of righteous indignation. Why? Well first of all because limited atonement depersonalizes the offer of the gospel. You see, you cannot look a person in the face, if you want to witness to them about Jesus, you cannot look at them in the face and say to them, “Jesus Christ died for you.” You can’t do that. Because you don’t know that He did! You don’t know if they are one of the elect or not! Many Calvinists say, “We can offer the gospel to all,” but I want to say that that is impossible under Calvinism. How can you offer a salvation that is not provided? And If Jesus didn’t die for somebody, then salvation is not provided, and you cannot offer salvation to all.
Friend, I want to tell you, when I began to wonder how is God going to receive someone who has made as many mistakes as I, who has sinned as much as I have, friend, I look to the Cross. I look to the Cross. “Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the Cross I cling.” He died for me, God. That’s the only way I expect to be received. That’s the only way I expect to get into heaven. But if atonement is limited, how can I be sure that He died for me? In final analysis, I can’t! And that’s a part of the reason why I detest the tenet of limited atonement.
Now scholastic Calvinism says it is the duty of all people everywhere to believe. But listen, in the light of Limited Atonement, I ask you - believe what? They can’t believe that Jesus died for them because they don’t know that for sure! All people are commanded to believe, but it becomes a very nebulous proposition at that point. Believe what?
Irresistible Grace
The I in the TULIP is what is called Irresistible Grace. That means that people who are going to be saved have no other option. They really don’t have a choice. The grace of God cannot be resisted. They cannot resist this special saving grace. Now the corollary to this follows: That is that those who are not elected are irresistibly damned– they cannot be saved. Like those who receive grace cannot resist it, so those who receive damnation cannot resist it.
Now, this is one reason why some groups have virtually given up on evangelism. Because it follows that if God works so irresistibly to either save or damn, Christians cannot affect the salvation of sinners, so they feel no responsibility for sharing that which might even have a tendency to interfere with the immutable purposes of God.
Sovereignty of God and Free Will of People
Now, ladies and gentlemen, all of us here, I trust, believe in the sovereignty of God – the absolute sovereignty of God. It is taught in the Bible. But along with the sovereignty of God, taught in the Bible also is the free will of people. You and I can choose. You say, “How can that be reconciled? That God is sovereign and yet people can make choices – people have a will regarding what they are going to do? If God is sovereign, how do you reconcile it? I don’t have to. Friend, there are times when you start looking at God that you scrutinize the inscrutable. And God doesn’t have one bit of trouble reconciling His sovereignty with man’s free will.
It was Spurgeon who was trying to lead a person to Christ, and somebody got frightened – they were always having to caution Spurgeon. “You may be speaking to one of the non-elect!” Spurgeon said, “Well….it’s all right. I don’t think God would mind too much if a few of the non-elect got saved.” My kind of Calvinist.
Dwight L. Moody, the great evangelist wisely said, “The elect are the ‘whosoever will’s.’ The non-elect are the ‘whosoever wont’s.’”
God’s grace can be resisted. People do not have to say “yes to the call of God, and nobody is compelled to say “no” to the call of God.
I believe getting involved in Reformed theology is a backward step that you as an individual or that you as a church do not want to take.
-Dr. Roy Fish, Excerpts from “The C Word (Calvinism)” preached August 11, AD 1997 at Cottage Hills Baptist Church, Mobile, Alabama. Part 2 of 2
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, March 4, AD 2013.
Other Articles:
John 3:16 Conference, 2013
Roy Fish on Calvinism; part 1 of 2
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention Sunday; Free Resources
Robert G. Lee On Calvinism
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Other Articles on this and many other subjects in lower right margin.
Scripture plainly teaches that predestination, which means to destine beforehand, is based on foreknowledge. God chose those whom He knew beforehand would choose Him! That’s why Paul said, in Romans 8:29-30 in that tremendous passage, “For whom He foreknew…” You’d better start where Paul starts. “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…” But He predestines on the basis of foreknowledge! The same thing is said in I Peter 1:2...
God elects, God predestines on the basis of knowing beforehand. That’s what the word “foreknowledge” means. I’ve checked it out in the Greek. It just means God knows what’s going to happen.
I had the privilege, last Saturday flying from DFW to Atlanta, I had the privilege of sitting by a schoolteacher who is going to Germany to be a teacher at one of our English-speaking schools in a military area of Germany. And she had a church background. But she had a deep deep disturbance in her soul. In fact, she was so deeply disturbed that she went to a chaplain there and told him how deeply disturbed she was, but she didn’t get any satisfaction or any peace. Well, needless to say, that kind of situation to a professor of evangelism means “Sick ‘em.” Excuse me for my failure in decorum and dignity there. But I knew that God was dealing with this lady. Her heart was hungry and open. See, God knew the situation. She said, “It’s sheer accident that I’m in this seat. I’m supposed to be in another seat.” But God knew the hunger of her heart. And God knew that she was ready for the message of Jesus. And He took all of the factors regarding her background, her hunger, and He chooses to use a vessel that was committed to Him to share the gospel. And sometimes I’m not that vessel that I want to be. And that is God’s way of demonstrating His election.
God elects and God foreordains and God predestines, but on the basis of foreknowledge.
Limited Atonement
The L in the TULIP stands for Limited Atonement, or Limited Love, or Particular Redemption. It really says that God did not love all men enough to have Christ die for all. It says that God didn’t care about the non-elect. He loved only those who would respond to Him in repentance.
I was discussing with an adamant Calvinist one day this very subject. He is a man of God but he doesn’t give 2 cents for the non-elect. He’s not interested in them. He couldn’t care less. I said, “You mean God doesn’t love them?” He said, “No, God doesn’t love them. He doesn’t love the non-elect.” I said to him, “Do you believe that the rich young ruler was one of the non-elect?” He said, “Yeah. He flatly turned down the Lord Jesus Christ. He turned Him down. He was one of the non-elect.” So I just turned my Bible to Mark 10. I said, “I want you to read this and stuff it in your Hyper-Calvinistic pipe!” The Bible says that when Jesus looked on the rich young ruler who was just about ready to reject Him, when Jesus looked on him, He loved him! And that word “love” is the same word that’s used in John 3:16. It’s the famous Greek word, “agape”! Jesus looked on this lost person and He loved him! And you will never pass a person on the streets of Mobile that God doesn’t love. You will never rub shoulders with anybody in a crowded shopping center that God does not love.
Limited atonement almost brings me to the point of righteous indignation. Why? Well first of all because limited atonement depersonalizes the offer of the gospel. You see, you cannot look a person in the face, if you want to witness to them about Jesus, you cannot look at them in the face and say to them, “Jesus Christ died for you.” You can’t do that. Because you don’t know that He did! You don’t know if they are one of the elect or not! Many Calvinists say, “We can offer the gospel to all,” but I want to say that that is impossible under Calvinism. How can you offer a salvation that is not provided? And If Jesus didn’t die for somebody, then salvation is not provided, and you cannot offer salvation to all.
Friend, I want to tell you, when I began to wonder how is God going to receive someone who has made as many mistakes as I, who has sinned as much as I have, friend, I look to the Cross. I look to the Cross. “Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the Cross I cling.” He died for me, God. That’s the only way I expect to be received. That’s the only way I expect to get into heaven. But if atonement is limited, how can I be sure that He died for me? In final analysis, I can’t! And that’s a part of the reason why I detest the tenet of limited atonement.
Now scholastic Calvinism says it is the duty of all people everywhere to believe. But listen, in the light of Limited Atonement, I ask you - believe what? They can’t believe that Jesus died for them because they don’t know that for sure! All people are commanded to believe, but it becomes a very nebulous proposition at that point. Believe what?
Irresistible Grace
The I in the TULIP is what is called Irresistible Grace. That means that people who are going to be saved have no other option. They really don’t have a choice. The grace of God cannot be resisted. They cannot resist this special saving grace. Now the corollary to this follows: That is that those who are not elected are irresistibly damned– they cannot be saved. Like those who receive grace cannot resist it, so those who receive damnation cannot resist it.
Now, this is one reason why some groups have virtually given up on evangelism. Because it follows that if God works so irresistibly to either save or damn, Christians cannot affect the salvation of sinners, so they feel no responsibility for sharing that which might even have a tendency to interfere with the immutable purposes of God.
Sovereignty of God and Free Will of People
Now, ladies and gentlemen, all of us here, I trust, believe in the sovereignty of God – the absolute sovereignty of God. It is taught in the Bible. But along with the sovereignty of God, taught in the Bible also is the free will of people. You and I can choose. You say, “How can that be reconciled? That God is sovereign and yet people can make choices – people have a will regarding what they are going to do? If God is sovereign, how do you reconcile it? I don’t have to. Friend, there are times when you start looking at God that you scrutinize the inscrutable. And God doesn’t have one bit of trouble reconciling His sovereignty with man’s free will.
It was Spurgeon who was trying to lead a person to Christ, and somebody got frightened – they were always having to caution Spurgeon. “You may be speaking to one of the non-elect!” Spurgeon said, “Well….it’s all right. I don’t think God would mind too much if a few of the non-elect got saved.” My kind of Calvinist.
Dwight L. Moody, the great evangelist wisely said, “The elect are the ‘whosoever will’s.’ The non-elect are the ‘whosoever wont’s.’”
God’s grace can be resisted. People do not have to say “yes to the call of God, and nobody is compelled to say “no” to the call of God.
I believe getting involved in Reformed theology is a backward step that you as an individual or that you as a church do not want to take.
-Dr. Roy Fish, Excerpts from “The C Word (Calvinism)” preached August 11, AD 1997 at Cottage Hills Baptist Church, Mobile, Alabama. Part 2 of 2
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, March 4, AD 2013.
Other Articles:
John 3:16 Conference, 2013
Roy Fish on Calvinism; part 1 of 2
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention Sunday; Free Resources
Robert G. Lee On Calvinism
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Other Articles on this and many other subjects in lower right margin.
Monday, February 25, 2013
Roy Fish on Calvinism; part 1 of 2
Evangelism Professor Roy Fish served Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) for almost 50 years. He occupied the L. R. Scarborough Chair of Evangelism, also called the Chair of Fire. He changed the lives of countless students. He led “Revive This Nation,” that sent out hundreds of SWBTS students to preach Revivals in local churches around the country. I had the opportunity on several occasions to hear him preach and lecture; you were always inspired to be a better Christian and evangelist.
Dr. Fish was a graduate of the University of Arkansas and SWBTS. He had a degree in Church History. He authored several books and numerous articles and essays on evangelism. He preached throughout the United States and the world.
Roy Fish served as interim president of the North American Mission Board, was awarded the W. A. Criswell Lifetime Achievement Award from the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention (SBTC), and the Charles G. Finney Award for Evangelism in Theological Education. The SBTC has established the Roy Fish Evangelism Award.
SWBTS president Paige Patterson, said, “Dr. Roy Fish was at once a fabulous lecturer and the most consistent soul-winner I know…God help us all to love lost people like he did.”
Dr. Steve Gaines, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, Tennessee said, “Without hyperbole, I can truthfully say I never met a man greater than Roy Fish…He turned down job positions where he could make more money than he made as a seminary professor but the wealth he turned down is not worthy to be compared to the riches he poured into students decade after decade. Nor is it comparable to millions who've heard the Gospel because of him training thousands of preachers.”
Roy Fish’s son Steve recalled numerous times when his father would share the Gospel with neighbors, strangers, waitresses and people they met on family vacations.
On August 11, 1997 Dr. Roy Fish preached a famous sermon at Cottage Hills Baptist Church, Mobile, Alabama. The host pastor was Fred Wolfe. Fish’s sermon was on “The ‘C’ Word” or Calvinism. He did not leave anyone wondering where he stood.
Following are excerpts from that well-known sermon.
*******
Many Shades of Calvinism
There are many shades of Calvinism. There are degrees to which people accept the basic tenets of this system, as I call it, of Calvinism. There are the “old school” Calvinists, the “hyper-Calvinists,” the “classic” Calvinists, the “moderate” Calvinists. And the modern thrust, as I understand it, is encouraging us to embrace all 5 of the major points of classical Calvinism.”
Assurance of Salvation
Asahel Nettleton was a great evangelist in the first 25 years of the 19th century. In fact you might call him the “Billy Graham” of that period of time…And thousands of people were converted under the ministry of this great evangelist. But Nettleton had this to say about his own salvation, being a very committed Calvinist, as almost all Christians in New England were at that time…Nettleton had this to say about his own salvation: “The most that I have ever ventured to say respecting myself is that I think it possible that I may get to heaven.”
It’s not that he was afraid of losing salvation. He knew that he couldn’t do that. He believed in the perseverance of the saints. He knew his salvation could never be lost. His fear was, this great evangelist, his fear was that he might never have had salvation in the first place. I ask you to compare this with the statement of the apostle Paul: “I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”
Now, Nettleton was a very prominent man. He was a Calvinist. But he was an honest man. He was willing to admit that when tuned to its finest point, Calvinism eliminates the possibility of assurance of salvation.
Calvinism is extremely weak when it comes to giving assurance to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is very difficult to know for sure – if you are a committed Calvinist – it is very difficult to know for sure whether or not you have eternal life. Assurance in Calvinism is based on the quality of the life of the believer. It is a matter of obedience to the commands of God.
Now, I might say that it wouldn’t hurt most of us to do a little bit of introspection, not so much as to whether or not we are going to be in celestial mansions, as Ian Murray says, but just to see if my life is pleasing to Jesus Christ and if I am measuring up to Him.
If Christ didn’t die for all (and that is a part of the Calvinistic system, that He didn’t die for all), if Christ didn’t die for all, and if it is possible to have a sorrow for sin that is not true repentance (and Calvinism teaches that), and a faith which is not a true faith, and possessing of the Spirit which falls short of true regeneration, if despite any and every experience of the gospel there is a way to Hell almost from the gates of Heaven, if Paul himself, as they say, feared he would lose his own salvation, then what remains of assurance for a Calvinist?
Danger of Calvinism to Evangelism
There is the danger of what Calvinism can do to evangelism and missions. Now, I want to surprise you by saying that this is not always the case. A moderate kind of Calvinism has been the most vital and virile kind of evangelism this country has ever known. And yet Calvinism has undercut missionary and evangelistic efforts.
Calvinism has led many churches and even entire denominations away from a belief in instantaneous conversion. As I read my New Testament I cannot help but believe that conversion is an instantaneous experience. It is possible that you do not remember precisely when it happened, but whether you do or whether you don’t, conversion is instantaneous. And Calvinism had led churches to the point where they believed that you had to go through a series of stages, maybe 3 or 4, and these stages could take months. And then after 9 months or 12 months, only then were you a real candidate for conversion.
A kind of Calvinism has virtually brought to a standstill evangelism in certain Baptist groups. They believed that if God were going to save people, that He would not do it through human instruments. Like [John] Rylans said, “If He wants to convert somebody, He’ll do it without you or me.” And they believed this. So they ceased to try to win people to Jesus.
They were a large Baptist group in the 19th century. Today they are only a handful. We call them the “Primitive Baptists” or the “Hardshell Baptists,” who have just about gone out of existence because they rejected evangelism and the winning of people to Jesus Christ through sharing the message with them.
I listened to a tape yesterday of a contemporary preacher who addressed the issue of evangelism. He is a 5-point Calvinist. He has spoken at many of our Baptist meetings. And referring to people as either spiritually dead or spiritually alive, he made this statement, “It is impossible to evangelize the spiritually dead.” I couldn’t believe my ears! “It is impossible to evangelize the spiritually dead.” If we don’t evangelize the spiritually dead, that leaves us with one option, and that is to evangelize those who are spiritually alive! And if I understand what it means to be spiritually alive, those who are spiritually alive don’t need evangelism!
Dead in Sins and Regeneration Before Faith
Is mankind so depraved that he cannot respond to God in repentance and faith? The answer of the Calvinists at this point is “Yes. Man is so depraved that he cannot respond to God in repentance and faith in that depraved condition. We are dead in trespasses and sins,” the Calvinists would say, “and dead people cannot respond.”
I want to remind you that when Adam and Eve sinned against God, they spiritually died. But when God spoke to them in the Garden, they heard him. People who were dead in trespasses and sins, Adam and Eve, heard the voice of God. They not only heard the voice of God, they were convicted about what they had done, and they obeyed God. they put on themselves skins of animals. So to say that a person who is dead in trespasses and sins simply cannot hear God speaking does not have biblical basis.
Every time the scripture speaks about life, whether it’s John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life,” or whether it’s John 5:24, “Verily, verily I say unto you, he that hears My word and believes on Him that sent Me has everlasting life,” when you hear or read those terms “everlasting life,” friend, I want to tell you that life comes out of this new birth. It is a reference to the life that God gives to us, and the New Testament is transparently clear that one believes or trusts into eternal life! It’s not something that you already have! You believe into it! You don’t have it until you trust!
So don’t hear me saying that one comes to a grasp of saving faith apart from the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit – and this is the point – the Holy Spirit does not have to make us alive before we have this saving faith. Rather as passage after passage says, saving faith in Jesus and His redeeming work makes us alive in Him.
That regeneration precedes repentance and faith is nothing but sheer implication, faulty logic, and glaringly lacking in biblical basis.
-Dr. Roy Fish, Excerpts from “The C Word (Calvinism)” preached August 11, AD 1997 at Cottage Hills Baptist Church, Mobile, Alabama. Part 1 of 2.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, February 25, AD 2013.
Dr. Roy Fish on Calvinism, Predestination; part 2 of 2
Other Articles on this and many other subjects in lower right margin.
Dr. Fish was a graduate of the University of Arkansas and SWBTS. He had a degree in Church History. He authored several books and numerous articles and essays on evangelism. He preached throughout the United States and the world.
Roy Fish served as interim president of the North American Mission Board, was awarded the W. A. Criswell Lifetime Achievement Award from the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention (SBTC), and the Charles G. Finney Award for Evangelism in Theological Education. The SBTC has established the Roy Fish Evangelism Award.
SWBTS president Paige Patterson, said, “Dr. Roy Fish was at once a fabulous lecturer and the most consistent soul-winner I know…God help us all to love lost people like he did.”
Dr. Steve Gaines, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, Tennessee said, “Without hyperbole, I can truthfully say I never met a man greater than Roy Fish…He turned down job positions where he could make more money than he made as a seminary professor but the wealth he turned down is not worthy to be compared to the riches he poured into students decade after decade. Nor is it comparable to millions who've heard the Gospel because of him training thousands of preachers.”
Roy Fish’s son Steve recalled numerous times when his father would share the Gospel with neighbors, strangers, waitresses and people they met on family vacations.
On August 11, 1997 Dr. Roy Fish preached a famous sermon at Cottage Hills Baptist Church, Mobile, Alabama. The host pastor was Fred Wolfe. Fish’s sermon was on “The ‘C’ Word” or Calvinism. He did not leave anyone wondering where he stood.
Following are excerpts from that well-known sermon.
*******
Many Shades of Calvinism
There are many shades of Calvinism. There are degrees to which people accept the basic tenets of this system, as I call it, of Calvinism. There are the “old school” Calvinists, the “hyper-Calvinists,” the “classic” Calvinists, the “moderate” Calvinists. And the modern thrust, as I understand it, is encouraging us to embrace all 5 of the major points of classical Calvinism.”
Assurance of Salvation
Asahel Nettleton was a great evangelist in the first 25 years of the 19th century. In fact you might call him the “Billy Graham” of that period of time…And thousands of people were converted under the ministry of this great evangelist. But Nettleton had this to say about his own salvation, being a very committed Calvinist, as almost all Christians in New England were at that time…Nettleton had this to say about his own salvation: “The most that I have ever ventured to say respecting myself is that I think it possible that I may get to heaven.”
It’s not that he was afraid of losing salvation. He knew that he couldn’t do that. He believed in the perseverance of the saints. He knew his salvation could never be lost. His fear was, this great evangelist, his fear was that he might never have had salvation in the first place. I ask you to compare this with the statement of the apostle Paul: “I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.”
Now, Nettleton was a very prominent man. He was a Calvinist. But he was an honest man. He was willing to admit that when tuned to its finest point, Calvinism eliminates the possibility of assurance of salvation.
Calvinism is extremely weak when it comes to giving assurance to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is very difficult to know for sure – if you are a committed Calvinist – it is very difficult to know for sure whether or not you have eternal life. Assurance in Calvinism is based on the quality of the life of the believer. It is a matter of obedience to the commands of God.
Now, I might say that it wouldn’t hurt most of us to do a little bit of introspection, not so much as to whether or not we are going to be in celestial mansions, as Ian Murray says, but just to see if my life is pleasing to Jesus Christ and if I am measuring up to Him.
If Christ didn’t die for all (and that is a part of the Calvinistic system, that He didn’t die for all), if Christ didn’t die for all, and if it is possible to have a sorrow for sin that is not true repentance (and Calvinism teaches that), and a faith which is not a true faith, and possessing of the Spirit which falls short of true regeneration, if despite any and every experience of the gospel there is a way to Hell almost from the gates of Heaven, if Paul himself, as they say, feared he would lose his own salvation, then what remains of assurance for a Calvinist?
Danger of Calvinism to Evangelism
There is the danger of what Calvinism can do to evangelism and missions. Now, I want to surprise you by saying that this is not always the case. A moderate kind of Calvinism has been the most vital and virile kind of evangelism this country has ever known. And yet Calvinism has undercut missionary and evangelistic efforts.
Calvinism has led many churches and even entire denominations away from a belief in instantaneous conversion. As I read my New Testament I cannot help but believe that conversion is an instantaneous experience. It is possible that you do not remember precisely when it happened, but whether you do or whether you don’t, conversion is instantaneous. And Calvinism had led churches to the point where they believed that you had to go through a series of stages, maybe 3 or 4, and these stages could take months. And then after 9 months or 12 months, only then were you a real candidate for conversion.
A kind of Calvinism has virtually brought to a standstill evangelism in certain Baptist groups. They believed that if God were going to save people, that He would not do it through human instruments. Like [John] Rylans said, “If He wants to convert somebody, He’ll do it without you or me.” And they believed this. So they ceased to try to win people to Jesus.
They were a large Baptist group in the 19th century. Today they are only a handful. We call them the “Primitive Baptists” or the “Hardshell Baptists,” who have just about gone out of existence because they rejected evangelism and the winning of people to Jesus Christ through sharing the message with them.
I listened to a tape yesterday of a contemporary preacher who addressed the issue of evangelism. He is a 5-point Calvinist. He has spoken at many of our Baptist meetings. And referring to people as either spiritually dead or spiritually alive, he made this statement, “It is impossible to evangelize the spiritually dead.” I couldn’t believe my ears! “It is impossible to evangelize the spiritually dead.” If we don’t evangelize the spiritually dead, that leaves us with one option, and that is to evangelize those who are spiritually alive! And if I understand what it means to be spiritually alive, those who are spiritually alive don’t need evangelism!
Dead in Sins and Regeneration Before Faith
Is mankind so depraved that he cannot respond to God in repentance and faith? The answer of the Calvinists at this point is “Yes. Man is so depraved that he cannot respond to God in repentance and faith in that depraved condition. We are dead in trespasses and sins,” the Calvinists would say, “and dead people cannot respond.”
I want to remind you that when Adam and Eve sinned against God, they spiritually died. But when God spoke to them in the Garden, they heard him. People who were dead in trespasses and sins, Adam and Eve, heard the voice of God. They not only heard the voice of God, they were convicted about what they had done, and they obeyed God. they put on themselves skins of animals. So to say that a person who is dead in trespasses and sins simply cannot hear God speaking does not have biblical basis.
Every time the scripture speaks about life, whether it’s John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life,” or whether it’s John 5:24, “Verily, verily I say unto you, he that hears My word and believes on Him that sent Me has everlasting life,” when you hear or read those terms “everlasting life,” friend, I want to tell you that life comes out of this new birth. It is a reference to the life that God gives to us, and the New Testament is transparently clear that one believes or trusts into eternal life! It’s not something that you already have! You believe into it! You don’t have it until you trust!
So don’t hear me saying that one comes to a grasp of saving faith apart from the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit – and this is the point – the Holy Spirit does not have to make us alive before we have this saving faith. Rather as passage after passage says, saving faith in Jesus and His redeeming work makes us alive in Him.
That regeneration precedes repentance and faith is nothing but sheer implication, faulty logic, and glaringly lacking in biblical basis.
-Dr. Roy Fish, Excerpts from “The C Word (Calvinism)” preached August 11, AD 1997 at Cottage Hills Baptist Church, Mobile, Alabama. Part 1 of 2.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, February 25, AD 2013.
Dr. Roy Fish on Calvinism, Predestination; part 2 of 2
Other Articles on this and many other subjects in lower right margin.
Wednesday, November 14, 2012
Dr. Boyd Hunt on the Atonement, Calvinism
Dr. W. Boyd Hunt (AD 1916-2007) was pastor of First Baptist Church, Houston, Texas, and theology professor (1953-1999) at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He shares some interesting views on the Atonement, Limited Atonement, modified Calvinism, and Hyper-Calvinism.
“In the post-Reformation period the views of the Reformers were often interpreted with extreme legalism. Hyper-Calvinism, with its view of a literal substitution and limited atonement (i.e., that Christ died for the elect only), developed in this period.
According to hyper-Calvinism, if Christ had died for the nonelect, their suffering eternally in hell would mean the exacting of the penalty twice, once from Christ on the cross and once from the sinner in hell. This, it was charged, would be unjust.
The most virile group of English Baptists in the 18th century were infected with this hyper-Calvinism. Holding to a limited atonement, they were called Particular Baptists, as opposed to General Baptists, who viewed the atonement as unlimited (i.e., that Christ died for all men).
Hyper-Calvinism persisted among Baptists in America longer than in England. It was dominant in the theology of James P. Boyce. The main stream of orthodox thought, however, has followed a modified Calvinism which interprets Christ’s substitutionary death in ethical and non-legalistic terms…It was the view of Edgar Y. Mullins and W. T. Conner.”
-Dr. W. Boyd Hunt, Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists, Broadman Press, Nashville; 1958.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, November14, AD 2012.
Other articles:
Romans 9, Calvinism, Traditionalism
Calvinism and Being Dead in Sins
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
More articles in lower right margin.
“In the post-Reformation period the views of the Reformers were often interpreted with extreme legalism. Hyper-Calvinism, with its view of a literal substitution and limited atonement (i.e., that Christ died for the elect only), developed in this period.
According to hyper-Calvinism, if Christ had died for the nonelect, their suffering eternally in hell would mean the exacting of the penalty twice, once from Christ on the cross and once from the sinner in hell. This, it was charged, would be unjust.
The most virile group of English Baptists in the 18th century were infected with this hyper-Calvinism. Holding to a limited atonement, they were called Particular Baptists, as opposed to General Baptists, who viewed the atonement as unlimited (i.e., that Christ died for all men).
Hyper-Calvinism persisted among Baptists in America longer than in England. It was dominant in the theology of James P. Boyce. The main stream of orthodox thought, however, has followed a modified Calvinism which interprets Christ’s substitutionary death in ethical and non-legalistic terms…It was the view of Edgar Y. Mullins and W. T. Conner.”
-Dr. W. Boyd Hunt, Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists, Broadman Press, Nashville; 1958.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, November14, AD 2012.
Other articles:
Romans 9, Calvinism, Traditionalism
Calvinism and Being Dead in Sins
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
More articles in lower right margin.
Monday, October 22, 2012
Francis Wayland on Calvinism in 1856
Francis Wayland (AD 1796-1865) was a leading Baptist pastor, writer, educator. Among other schools, he studied at Andover Theological Seminary where he was influenced by Moses Stuart. He pastored First Baptist Church, Boston, Massachusetts, First Baptist Church, Providence, Rhode Island, and was president of Brown University. Wayland fought slavery and alcohol.
He was a leader in the Northern Baptist Convention, yet also influential in the Southern Baptist Convention. Wayland was a mentor to J. P. Boyce and Wayland’s book, Notes on the Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches was highly recommended by B. H. Carroll.
Historian Leon McBeth said of Wayland, “He became almost an oracle, a leader whose judgment on every subject was sought and usually followed.”
Below are some of Dr. Wayland’s thoughts, published in book form in 1856, on Calvinism and the extent of the Atonement:
“The extent of the atonement has been and still is a matter of honest but not unkind difference. Within the last fifty years a change has gradually taken place in the views of a large portion of our brethren. At the commencement of that period Gill’s Divinity was a sort of standard, and Baptists imbibing his opinions were what may be called almost hyper-Calvinistic.
A change commenced upon the publication of the writings of Andrew Fuller, especially his ‘Gospel Worthy of all Acceptation,’ which, in the northern and eastern States, has become almost universal. The old view still prevails, if I mistake not, in our southern and western States. This, however, does not interrupt the harmony which should subsist among brethren. Dr. Baldwin and Dr. Stillman differed in opinion on this subject; the former following Fuller, the latter adhering to Gill. No two ministers, however, ever lived in more fraternal intercourse, exchanging with and siding with and aiding each other, and rejoicing in each other’s prosperity, as it became the servants of one common Lord. I have known men believing the atonement to be limited, preach with great acceptance in New England, where the contrary belief prevails almost universally, and the contrary has been even more frequently the case. Men, in this respect, differ amicably; and it is found that when their hearts are warmed with the love of God and desire for the salvation of souls, they all preach very much alike.
It is difficult at the present day to conceive to what extent the doctrine of the limited atonement, and the views of election which accompanied it, were carried. I once knew a popular minister, who used to quote the passage, ‘God so loved the world,’ etc., by inserting the word elect before world: ‘God so loved the elect world’ etc.
I was, in the early part of my ministry, settled in a respectable town in Massachusetts. One of my members, a very worthy man, and the son of a Baptist minister, and reputed to be ‘very clear in the doctrines’ - (this was the term applied to this form of belief) - had an interesting family wholly given up to worldliness. I wished to converse with them on the subject of personal religion, and mentioned to him my desire. He kindly but plainly told me that he did not wish any one to converse with his children on that subject. If they were elected, God would convert them in his own time; but if not, talking would do them no good, it would only make them hypocrites. He was, I believe, the last pillar of Gillism then remaining in the church.”
-Dr. Francis Wayland, Notes on the Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches, Sheldon & Co., New York; 1867. First published in book form in 1856; previous to that published in The Examiner. (The Preface in his book is dated October 28, 1856.)
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, October 22, AD 2012.
Other Articles:
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
Acts 29, Alcohol, and the Southern Baptist Convention
B. H. Carroll on Hyper-Calvinism
More articles can be found in lower right margin.
He was a leader in the Northern Baptist Convention, yet also influential in the Southern Baptist Convention. Wayland was a mentor to J. P. Boyce and Wayland’s book, Notes on the Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches was highly recommended by B. H. Carroll.
Historian Leon McBeth said of Wayland, “He became almost an oracle, a leader whose judgment on every subject was sought and usually followed.”
Below are some of Dr. Wayland’s thoughts, published in book form in 1856, on Calvinism and the extent of the Atonement:
“The extent of the atonement has been and still is a matter of honest but not unkind difference. Within the last fifty years a change has gradually taken place in the views of a large portion of our brethren. At the commencement of that period Gill’s Divinity was a sort of standard, and Baptists imbibing his opinions were what may be called almost hyper-Calvinistic.
A change commenced upon the publication of the writings of Andrew Fuller, especially his ‘Gospel Worthy of all Acceptation,’ which, in the northern and eastern States, has become almost universal. The old view still prevails, if I mistake not, in our southern and western States. This, however, does not interrupt the harmony which should subsist among brethren. Dr. Baldwin and Dr. Stillman differed in opinion on this subject; the former following Fuller, the latter adhering to Gill. No two ministers, however, ever lived in more fraternal intercourse, exchanging with and siding with and aiding each other, and rejoicing in each other’s prosperity, as it became the servants of one common Lord. I have known men believing the atonement to be limited, preach with great acceptance in New England, where the contrary belief prevails almost universally, and the contrary has been even more frequently the case. Men, in this respect, differ amicably; and it is found that when their hearts are warmed with the love of God and desire for the salvation of souls, they all preach very much alike.
It is difficult at the present day to conceive to what extent the doctrine of the limited atonement, and the views of election which accompanied it, were carried. I once knew a popular minister, who used to quote the passage, ‘God so loved the world,’ etc., by inserting the word elect before world: ‘God so loved the elect world’ etc.
I was, in the early part of my ministry, settled in a respectable town in Massachusetts. One of my members, a very worthy man, and the son of a Baptist minister, and reputed to be ‘very clear in the doctrines’ - (this was the term applied to this form of belief) - had an interesting family wholly given up to worldliness. I wished to converse with them on the subject of personal religion, and mentioned to him my desire. He kindly but plainly told me that he did not wish any one to converse with his children on that subject. If they were elected, God would convert them in his own time; but if not, talking would do them no good, it would only make them hypocrites. He was, I believe, the last pillar of Gillism then remaining in the church.”
-Dr. Francis Wayland, Notes on the Principles and Practices of Baptist Churches, Sheldon & Co., New York; 1867. First published in book form in 1856; previous to that published in The Examiner. (The Preface in his book is dated October 28, 1856.)
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, October 22, AD 2012.
Other Articles:
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
Acts 29, Alcohol, and the Southern Baptist Convention
B. H. Carroll on Hyper-Calvinism
More articles can be found in lower right margin.
Sunday, July 8, 2012
Romans 9, Calvinism, Traditionalism
In Romans 9:13 God says, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
Romans 9 is one of the Calvinists’ favorite chapters. They refer to it often and believe it refers to personal salvation. They use it against Traditionalists or non-Calvinists. They say Traditionalists have no answer to this obviously Calvinistic Scripture, or that they don‘t believe it. One joked a couple of years ago about how a Traditionalist tore Romans 9 out of his Bible. We have even been accused of not believing in inerrancy because we do not agree with their interpretation of this passage.
The answer to Romans 9, however, is very simple. When referring to Jacob and Esau, God is not speaking of two individuals, but of two nations (see also Genesis 25:23). God is not saying, I’m sending one of you to Heaven and one of you to Hell.
Romans is quoting an Old Testament passage, not from Genesis, but from Malachi (1:2-3), long after Jacob and Esau were dead. Both passages (Romans & Malachi) refer to the nations of Israel and Edom.
Furthermore, love and hate are used differently than they are often used today. Hate is used in the sense of “loved less.” This use of the word hate is seen in Genesis 29:30-31 and Luke 14:26.
This Scripture is not speaking of personal salvation, but of how God elected Israel to be His chosen people and passed over Edom. For example, my song leader can’t preach and I as pastor can’t sing. God gave us different gifts and talents. Does that mean He hates (in our modern day view of hate) one of us and loves the other? No, God loves us both, but chose us for different roles. It has nothing to do with our personal salvation.
Calvinists have made the mistake of saying this chapter is only about personal election, about whether one is sent to Heaven or Hell.
Both sides will have all types of variations and nuances in their interpretation of Romans 9. But my views presented above are certainly not out of the ordinary.
A few quotes should prove this true:
“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart because Pharaoh first hardened his own heart.”
“All God did was to crystallize the sin that was already in him [Pharaoh]. God did not take a little tender child and say, “I’m going to harden your heart and then I’m going to cast you into Hell.”
On Romans 9 and Jacob and Esau; “God is not talking about two little babies, one born for Heaven and one born for Hell. That’s not what He is saying at all. This is national, not personal.” Later, “God was not talking about salvation. He was simply saying that Israel is going to be His choice, and the descendants of Jacob are going to be His spiritual leaders in the world…Nothing is said here about one twin going to Heaven and the other twin going to Hell.”
On the Scripture, “The vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” “Well, how did they get ripe for destruction? In his word study, Vincent reminds us that this is the middle voice, which means simply that they fitted themselves for destruction. It is not the potter that fits them for destruction. It is the potter who is long-suffering. It is the vessels of wrath who fit themselves for destruction. God never made anybody to go to Hell. God wants people saved. He wants you saved. First Timothy 2:4 speaks of ‘God who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.’”
-Adrian Rogers, Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!, lwf.org.
“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated must be interpreted in the sense of nations, not individuals, which is the original reference in the two OT quotations (Genesis 25:23; Malachi 1:2,3). The nations of Israel and Edom are in view, not Jacob and Esau as individual men, whose names occur as eponymous ancestors of the later tribes.”
“Moreover, ‘love’ and ‘hate’ are not the grounds of election as we understand these subjective feelings…The emotional terms indicate rather a special function and destiny. Judah, not Edom, was elected for progressive revelation in history. This meaning may be supported by the rendering ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I loved less.’”
-The New Bible Commentary: Revised, Edited by D. Guthrie, J. A. Motyer, A. M. Stibbs, D. J. Wiseman, publisher Wm. B. Eerdmans; 1970.
“God is not speaking here about the individual Jacob but about the nation of Jacob (Israel)…The reference here is not to individual election but to the corporate election of a chosen nation - Israel.”
“Regardless of the corporate election of Israel as a nation, each individual had to accept the Messiah in order to be saved.”
“God’s ‘love’ for Jacob and ‘hate’ for Esau is not speaking of those men before they were born, but long after they lived.”
“The Hebrew word for ‘hated’ really means ‘loved less.’”
-Dr. Norman Geisler, Chosen But Free: A Balanced View of Divine Election, Bethany House; 1999, 2010.
“The key to unlocking the mystery of this passage - if ‘mystery’ it may be called - is found in our Lord’s declaration of verse 12: ‘It was said to her, the elder shall serve the younger.’ It ought to be pointed out, and pointed out every strongly, that ‘S-E-R-V-E’ does not spell ‘S-A-L-V-A-T-I-O-N.’”
“As a matter of fact, the whole issue is a national matter which pertains to governments, not a personal matter dealing with the salvation of individuals. This ‘purpose of God according to election’ deals strictly with the descendants of Esau serving the descendants of Jacob! The entire chapter relates to God’s dealing with a nation, Israel, not with individuals as such.”
-Dr. R. L. Sumner, An Examination of TULIP: The Five Points of Calvinism, biblicalevangelist.org; 1972.
“Israel’s election to serve as a chosen people and individual election to salvation for Christians is interwoven in Romans 9-11. Calvinists often do not give adequate attention to the former.”
-Dr. Steve W. Lemke, Whosoever Will, Edited by David L. Allen and Steve W. Lemke, B&H; 2010.
“Romans 9:13 is a reference to Malachi 1:2-3 and refers to nations (Israel and Edom) and not individual sinners. God does not hate sinners. John 3:16 makes it clear that He loves sinners. The statement here has to do with national election, not individual.”
-Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary, Volume I, Victor Books; 1989.
“There is no question here of predestination to Heaven or reprobation to Hell; in fact, eternal issues do not really come in throughout this chapter, although, of course, they naturally follow as the result of the use or abuse of God-given privileges. But we are not told here, or anywhere else, that before children are born it is God’s purpose to send one to Heaven and another to Hell…The passage has entirely to do with privilege here on earth.”
-H. A. Ironside, Romans. Quoted in Whosoever Will, Allen & Lemke.
So yes, Traditionalists do have, and have had, an explanation of Romans 9. We don’t ignore it, we believe it and teach it. And it is ridiculous to say because we disagree with a standard Calvinist interpretation that we don’t believe in inerrancy.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, July 8, AD 2012.
Articles
Romans 9 Revisited; Non-Calvinist Views
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
Basic Baptist Doctrines / Beliefs
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Other articles in lower right margin.
Romans 9 is one of the Calvinists’ favorite chapters. They refer to it often and believe it refers to personal salvation. They use it against Traditionalists or non-Calvinists. They say Traditionalists have no answer to this obviously Calvinistic Scripture, or that they don‘t believe it. One joked a couple of years ago about how a Traditionalist tore Romans 9 out of his Bible. We have even been accused of not believing in inerrancy because we do not agree with their interpretation of this passage.
The answer to Romans 9, however, is very simple. When referring to Jacob and Esau, God is not speaking of two individuals, but of two nations (see also Genesis 25:23). God is not saying, I’m sending one of you to Heaven and one of you to Hell.
Romans is quoting an Old Testament passage, not from Genesis, but from Malachi (1:2-3), long after Jacob and Esau were dead. Both passages (Romans & Malachi) refer to the nations of Israel and Edom.
Furthermore, love and hate are used differently than they are often used today. Hate is used in the sense of “loved less.” This use of the word hate is seen in Genesis 29:30-31 and Luke 14:26.
This Scripture is not speaking of personal salvation, but of how God elected Israel to be His chosen people and passed over Edom. For example, my song leader can’t preach and I as pastor can’t sing. God gave us different gifts and talents. Does that mean He hates (in our modern day view of hate) one of us and loves the other? No, God loves us both, but chose us for different roles. It has nothing to do with our personal salvation.
Calvinists have made the mistake of saying this chapter is only about personal election, about whether one is sent to Heaven or Hell.
Both sides will have all types of variations and nuances in their interpretation of Romans 9. But my views presented above are certainly not out of the ordinary.
A few quotes should prove this true:
“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart because Pharaoh first hardened his own heart.”
“All God did was to crystallize the sin that was already in him [Pharaoh]. God did not take a little tender child and say, “I’m going to harden your heart and then I’m going to cast you into Hell.”
On Romans 9 and Jacob and Esau; “God is not talking about two little babies, one born for Heaven and one born for Hell. That’s not what He is saying at all. This is national, not personal.” Later, “God was not talking about salvation. He was simply saying that Israel is going to be His choice, and the descendants of Jacob are going to be His spiritual leaders in the world…Nothing is said here about one twin going to Heaven and the other twin going to Hell.”
On the Scripture, “The vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” “Well, how did they get ripe for destruction? In his word study, Vincent reminds us that this is the middle voice, which means simply that they fitted themselves for destruction. It is not the potter that fits them for destruction. It is the potter who is long-suffering. It is the vessels of wrath who fit themselves for destruction. God never made anybody to go to Hell. God wants people saved. He wants you saved. First Timothy 2:4 speaks of ‘God who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.’”
-Adrian Rogers, Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!, lwf.org.
“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated must be interpreted in the sense of nations, not individuals, which is the original reference in the two OT quotations (Genesis 25:23; Malachi 1:2,3). The nations of Israel and Edom are in view, not Jacob and Esau as individual men, whose names occur as eponymous ancestors of the later tribes.”
“Moreover, ‘love’ and ‘hate’ are not the grounds of election as we understand these subjective feelings…The emotional terms indicate rather a special function and destiny. Judah, not Edom, was elected for progressive revelation in history. This meaning may be supported by the rendering ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I loved less.’”
-The New Bible Commentary: Revised, Edited by D. Guthrie, J. A. Motyer, A. M. Stibbs, D. J. Wiseman, publisher Wm. B. Eerdmans; 1970.
“God is not speaking here about the individual Jacob but about the nation of Jacob (Israel)…The reference here is not to individual election but to the corporate election of a chosen nation - Israel.”
“Regardless of the corporate election of Israel as a nation, each individual had to accept the Messiah in order to be saved.”
“God’s ‘love’ for Jacob and ‘hate’ for Esau is not speaking of those men before they were born, but long after they lived.”
“The Hebrew word for ‘hated’ really means ‘loved less.’”
-Dr. Norman Geisler, Chosen But Free: A Balanced View of Divine Election, Bethany House; 1999, 2010.
“The key to unlocking the mystery of this passage - if ‘mystery’ it may be called - is found in our Lord’s declaration of verse 12: ‘It was said to her, the elder shall serve the younger.’ It ought to be pointed out, and pointed out every strongly, that ‘S-E-R-V-E’ does not spell ‘S-A-L-V-A-T-I-O-N.’”
“As a matter of fact, the whole issue is a national matter which pertains to governments, not a personal matter dealing with the salvation of individuals. This ‘purpose of God according to election’ deals strictly with the descendants of Esau serving the descendants of Jacob! The entire chapter relates to God’s dealing with a nation, Israel, not with individuals as such.”
-Dr. R. L. Sumner, An Examination of TULIP: The Five Points of Calvinism, biblicalevangelist.org; 1972.
“Israel’s election to serve as a chosen people and individual election to salvation for Christians is interwoven in Romans 9-11. Calvinists often do not give adequate attention to the former.”
-Dr. Steve W. Lemke, Whosoever Will, Edited by David L. Allen and Steve W. Lemke, B&H; 2010.
“Romans 9:13 is a reference to Malachi 1:2-3 and refers to nations (Israel and Edom) and not individual sinners. God does not hate sinners. John 3:16 makes it clear that He loves sinners. The statement here has to do with national election, not individual.”
-Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary, Volume I, Victor Books; 1989.
“There is no question here of predestination to Heaven or reprobation to Hell; in fact, eternal issues do not really come in throughout this chapter, although, of course, they naturally follow as the result of the use or abuse of God-given privileges. But we are not told here, or anywhere else, that before children are born it is God’s purpose to send one to Heaven and another to Hell…The passage has entirely to do with privilege here on earth.”
-H. A. Ironside, Romans. Quoted in Whosoever Will, Allen & Lemke.
So yes, Traditionalists do have, and have had, an explanation of Romans 9. We don’t ignore it, we believe it and teach it. And it is ridiculous to say because we disagree with a standard Calvinist interpretation that we don’t believe in inerrancy.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, July 8, AD 2012.
Articles
Romans 9 Revisited; Non-Calvinist Views
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
Basic Baptist Doctrines / Beliefs
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Other articles in lower right margin.
Monday, July 2, 2012
No One Seeks After God, Or Do They?
I often hear that no one seeks after God. I just heard this again today from a Calvinist. Yes, I agree that is in the Bible.
For example:
There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. -Romans 3:11
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts. -Psalm 10:4
Also: Psalm 14:1-3; Psalm 53:1-3; Hosea 7:10
But could it be that is only one side of the coin? Cornelius sought after God (Acts 10). Why are verses like the following seemingly ignored?
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. -Deuteronomy 4:29
When You said, “Seek My face,” My heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.” -Psalm 27:8
The humble shall see this and be glad; and you who seek God, your hearts shall live. -Psalm 69:32
Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. -Isaiah 55:6
Yet they seek Me daily, and delight to know My ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and did not forsake the ordinance of their God. They ask of Me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching God. -Isaiah 58:2
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him. -Lamentations 3:25
Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD’s anger. -Zephaniah 2:3
For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel: “Seek Me and live. -Amos 5:4
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. -Hebrews 11:6
The next time you hear someone pointing out everyone knows that no one seeks after God, in order to make some Calvinistic point, perhaps you should point out some of the often neglected Scripture above.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, July 2, AD 2012.
Calvinism and Being Dead in Sins
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Brief History of SBC Conservative Resurgence
Other Articles in lower right margin.
For example:
There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. -Romans 3:11
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts. -Psalm 10:4
Also: Psalm 14:1-3; Psalm 53:1-3; Hosea 7:10
But could it be that is only one side of the coin? Cornelius sought after God (Acts 10). Why are verses like the following seemingly ignored?
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. -Deuteronomy 4:29
When You said, “Seek My face,” My heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.” -Psalm 27:8
The humble shall see this and be glad; and you who seek God, your hearts shall live. -Psalm 69:32
Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. -Isaiah 55:6
Yet they seek Me daily, and delight to know My ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and did not forsake the ordinance of their God. They ask of Me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching God. -Isaiah 58:2
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him. -Lamentations 3:25
Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD’s anger. -Zephaniah 2:3
For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel: “Seek Me and live. -Amos 5:4
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. -Hebrews 11:6
The next time you hear someone pointing out everyone knows that no one seeks after God, in order to make some Calvinistic point, perhaps you should point out some of the often neglected Scripture above.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, July 2, AD 2012.
Calvinism and Being Dead in Sins
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Brief History of SBC Conservative Resurgence
Other Articles in lower right margin.
Monday, May 7, 2012
Evangelist Billy Graham on Charles G. Finney
I grew up hearing good things about Charles Finney (AD 1792-1875), an evangelist from the early 1800s. I heard sermon illustrations about him. I saw books by and about him in my dad’s library and other preachers’ libraries. My heart was stirred hearing how he was part of a great revival in America and was instrumental in leading multitudes to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Today I see Finney attacked time and again. Some Calvinists in particular seem to have a visceral distain for him. Finneyism is by them used almost as a curse word. They call him a Semi-Pelagian, another of their favorite pejorative terms. According to some Finney is the reason for virtually all problems, real and imagined, in the church today. Curiously, these same folks usually do not so criticize the great evangelist of our time, Billy Graham. Perhaps because it would not be so accepted?
It's refreshing to hear something good about Finney. Back in 1982 Evangelist Billy Graham had some very interesting comments. Hear them:
“Few men have had such a profound impact on their generation as Charles Grandison Finney. Through his Spirit-filled evangelistic ministry, uncounted thousands came to know Christ in the nineteenth century, resulting in one of the greatest periods of revival in the history of America. In addition, he became one of the most widely-read theologians of his time through his lectures and writings. His concern for education influenced whole generations of students.”
“But most of all, Charles G. Finney was a deeply-committed Christian. More than anything else he wanted to serve Christ and be used of Him.”
-Evangelist Billy Graham *
Graham goes on to call Finney a “remarkable man,” and “one of history’s greatest evangelists.”
So don’t be intimidated by the criticism. Get Finney’s books; get Drummond’s book on Finney. And next time you hear someone running down Charles Finney, you might share with them Billy Graham’s view of this great evangelist.
* From the Foreword in The Life and Ministry of Charles G. Finney by Dr. Lewis A. Drummond, Bethany House Publishers; 1983. Drummond was a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, May 7, AD 2012.
Other articles:
Random Advice to Pastors, Part 1
Scofield Bible, First 100 Years
Baptists on Tithing
Young Preachers - Finding a Place to Preach; Part 1
Saved By The Sinner's Prayer
Other articles in lower right margin
Today I see Finney attacked time and again. Some Calvinists in particular seem to have a visceral distain for him. Finneyism is by them used almost as a curse word. They call him a Semi-Pelagian, another of their favorite pejorative terms. According to some Finney is the reason for virtually all problems, real and imagined, in the church today. Curiously, these same folks usually do not so criticize the great evangelist of our time, Billy Graham. Perhaps because it would not be so accepted?
It's refreshing to hear something good about Finney. Back in 1982 Evangelist Billy Graham had some very interesting comments. Hear them:
“Few men have had such a profound impact on their generation as Charles Grandison Finney. Through his Spirit-filled evangelistic ministry, uncounted thousands came to know Christ in the nineteenth century, resulting in one of the greatest periods of revival in the history of America. In addition, he became one of the most widely-read theologians of his time through his lectures and writings. His concern for education influenced whole generations of students.”
“But most of all, Charles G. Finney was a deeply-committed Christian. More than anything else he wanted to serve Christ and be used of Him.”
-Evangelist Billy Graham *
Graham goes on to call Finney a “remarkable man,” and “one of history’s greatest evangelists.”
So don’t be intimidated by the criticism. Get Finney’s books; get Drummond’s book on Finney. And next time you hear someone running down Charles Finney, you might share with them Billy Graham’s view of this great evangelist.
* From the Foreword in The Life and Ministry of Charles G. Finney by Dr. Lewis A. Drummond, Bethany House Publishers; 1983. Drummond was a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, May 7, AD 2012.
Update: Additional endorsements of Charles G. Finney
by Christian leaders.
“[Charles
G.] Finney won multiplied thousands of souls.
Although he preached in a smaller area, and though he was handicapped by
some errors in theology, Finney probably had as powerful a manifestation of the
power of God upon his ministry as did D. L. Moody or any other preacher since
the days of Paul, and in the smaller area which he covered in his revival work
a larger proportion of the population was saved than has been true, we suppose,
in the ministry of any other great evangelist.”
-John R. Rice, “The Power of Pentecost;” 1949, 1979. Rice was founding editor of “The Sword of the
Lord.”
Robert L. Sumner refers to the
“noted and greatly used Charles G. Finney.”
Sumner was an evangelist, author, Associate Editor of “The Sword of the
Lord,” editor of “The Biblical Evangelist.”
“While
giving instruction it is wise to appeal to the understanding. True religion is
as logical as if it were not emotional. I am not an admirer of the peculiar
views of Mr. [Charles G.] Finney,
but I have no doubt that he was useful to many; and his power lay in his use of
clear arguments. Many who knew his fame were greatly disappointed at first
hearing him, because he used few beauties of speech and was as calm and dry as
a book of Euclid; but he was exactly adapted to a certain order of minds, and
they were convinced and convicted by his forcible reasoning. Should not persons
of an argumentative cast of mind be provided for? We are to be all things to
all men, and to these men we must become argumentative and push them into a
corner with plain deductions and necessary inferences. Of carnal reasoning we
would have none, but of fair, honest pondering, considering, judging, and
arguing the more the better.”
-Charles H. Spurgeon, “Lectures to My
Students.”
“One
of the tremendous affirmations of the great evangelist and preacher Charles G.
Finney is this; that it is the truth of God that convicts and that saves.”
-W. A.
Criswell, pastor of First Baptist Church, Dallas, TX, author, SBC
president.
For
a positive treatment of Finney, see: “The Life and Ministry of Charles G. Finney” by
Dr. Lewis A. Drummond, Bethany House
Publishers; 1983.
Drummond was a professor at Southern Baptist Theological
Seminary and president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Also
see, Robert W. Caldwell III, “Theologies
of the American Revivalists,” IVP Academic; 2017.
Dr. Caldwell is professor of church history,
SWBTS.
Both
Caldwell and Drummond explain some of Finney’s theological views, views
criticized by some who do not understand them.
They also explain some of the “out of context” Finney quotes that are
often used against him.
I
do not agree with all of Finney’s theology, but he was a great evangelist and
greatly used of God. He is undeserving of much of the modern criticism against
him.
-DRB;
1-7-AD 2018.
Other articles:
Random Advice to Pastors, Part 1
Scofield Bible, First 100 Years
Baptists on Tithing
Young Preachers - Finding a Place to Preach; Part 1
Saved By The Sinner's Prayer
Other articles in lower right margin
Monday, August 29, 2011
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
Adrian Rogers was pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, Tennessee and elected three times as president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He was the first president elected, and a leader in, the SBC Conservative Resurgence. His messages are still widely distributed through TV, radio, and literature. He is the favorite preacher of multitudes of Southern Baptists.
Below are a few of Adrian Rogers thoughts on predestination and Calvinism:
“Did God predestine some people for Heaven and predestine some people for Hell? Are humans just pawns on the chessboard of fate? Absolutely not!”
“There are some who…say that God has chosen some before they are born to go the Hell and others He has chosen to go to Heaven - and there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it. I don’t accept this for a moment…”
“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart because Pharaoh first hardened his own heart.”
“All God did was to crystallize the sin that was already in him [Pharaoh]. God did not take a little tender child and say, “I’m going to harden your heart and then I’m going to cast you into Hell.”
Pharaoh “had blasphemed the God of Heaven, and God had warned him. God has sent His messenger to him, but this man stubbornly and arrogantly said “no” to God. It was then that God further hardened the heart of this man whose heart was already hardened. But don’t get the idea that God just raised up Pharaoh to send him to Hell. God warned Pharaoh, but he wouldn’t heed the warning.”
On Romans 9 and Jacob and Esau; “God is not talking about two little babies, one born for Heaven and one born for Hell. That’s not what He is saying at all. This is national, not personal.” Later, “God was not talking about salvation. He was simply saying that Israel is going to be His choice, and the descendants of Jacob are going to be His spiritual leaders in the world…Nothing is said here about one twin going to Heaven and the other twin going to Hell.”
On the Scripture, “The vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” “Well, how did they get ripe for destruction? In his word study, Vincent reminds us that this is the middle voice, which means simply that they fitted themselves for destruction. It is not the potter than fits them for destruction. It is the potter who is long-suffering. It is the vessels of wrath who fit themselves for destruction. God never made anybody to go to Hell. God wants people saved. He wants you saved. First Timothy 2:4 speaks of ‘God who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.’”
“The following Scriptures show God’s universal love for all and His promise to all who will trust in Christ.” Rogers then quotes John 3:16-17; Isaiah 53:6; Romans 8:32; 1 Timothy 2:4; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 2:2; Revelation 22:17; Romans 9:33.
After quoting 1 John 2:2 Adrian Rogers says, “In this classic passage Jesus is spoken of as the propitiation or the satisfaction, not only for the sins of those who are already saved, but for the sins of the whole world.”
“If you want to be saved, to be one of the elect, then just come to Jesus.”
“I invite you to pray like this,
‘Dear God, I know that You love me. I know that You want to save me. I am a sinner and my sin deserves judgment, but I need mercy and I want mercy. I am not going to harden my heart against You, God. I open my heart. Come into my heart and into my life right now. Forgive all my sin, save me, Lord Jesus.’
Friend, pray that from your heart, ask Jesus to save you, trust Him to do it, and He will!”
These quotes are from the sermon booklet, Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!, by Adrian Rogers, Love Worth Finding, P.O. Box 38800, Memphis, TN 38183-0300, (lwf.org); 1999; 2010. 901/382-7900.
Order the booklet today; it just costs $2. Order extra for those who have questions about this subject.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, August 29, AD 2011.
Related Articles:
Brief History of SBC Conservative Resurgence
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Adrian Rogers on "Wit & Wisdom of Pastor Joe Brumbelow"
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
B. H. Carroll on Hyper-Calvinism
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Wit And Wisdom Of My Dad
Ancient Wine Production and the Bible
Roy Fish on Calvinism; part 1 of 2
Other articles found in lower right margin under Gulf Coast Pastor Articles (Labels).
Below are a few of Adrian Rogers thoughts on predestination and Calvinism:
“Did God predestine some people for Heaven and predestine some people for Hell? Are humans just pawns on the chessboard of fate? Absolutely not!”
“There are some who…say that God has chosen some before they are born to go the Hell and others He has chosen to go to Heaven - and there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it. I don’t accept this for a moment…”
“God hardened Pharaoh’s heart because Pharaoh first hardened his own heart.”
“All God did was to crystallize the sin that was already in him [Pharaoh]. God did not take a little tender child and say, “I’m going to harden your heart and then I’m going to cast you into Hell.”
Pharaoh “had blasphemed the God of Heaven, and God had warned him. God has sent His messenger to him, but this man stubbornly and arrogantly said “no” to God. It was then that God further hardened the heart of this man whose heart was already hardened. But don’t get the idea that God just raised up Pharaoh to send him to Hell. God warned Pharaoh, but he wouldn’t heed the warning.”
On Romans 9 and Jacob and Esau; “God is not talking about two little babies, one born for Heaven and one born for Hell. That’s not what He is saying at all. This is national, not personal.” Later, “God was not talking about salvation. He was simply saying that Israel is going to be His choice, and the descendants of Jacob are going to be His spiritual leaders in the world…Nothing is said here about one twin going to Heaven and the other twin going to Hell.”
On the Scripture, “The vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” “Well, how did they get ripe for destruction? In his word study, Vincent reminds us that this is the middle voice, which means simply that they fitted themselves for destruction. It is not the potter than fits them for destruction. It is the potter who is long-suffering. It is the vessels of wrath who fit themselves for destruction. God never made anybody to go to Hell. God wants people saved. He wants you saved. First Timothy 2:4 speaks of ‘God who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.’”
“The following Scriptures show God’s universal love for all and His promise to all who will trust in Christ.” Rogers then quotes John 3:16-17; Isaiah 53:6; Romans 8:32; 1 Timothy 2:4; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 2:2; Revelation 22:17; Romans 9:33.
After quoting 1 John 2:2 Adrian Rogers says, “In this classic passage Jesus is spoken of as the propitiation or the satisfaction, not only for the sins of those who are already saved, but for the sins of the whole world.”
“If you want to be saved, to be one of the elect, then just come to Jesus.”
“I invite you to pray like this,
‘Dear God, I know that You love me. I know that You want to save me. I am a sinner and my sin deserves judgment, but I need mercy and I want mercy. I am not going to harden my heart against You, God. I open my heart. Come into my heart and into my life right now. Forgive all my sin, save me, Lord Jesus.’
Friend, pray that from your heart, ask Jesus to save you, trust Him to do it, and He will!”
These quotes are from the sermon booklet, Predestined for Hell? Absolutely Not!, by Adrian Rogers, Love Worth Finding, P.O. Box 38800, Memphis, TN 38183-0300, (lwf.org); 1999; 2010. 901/382-7900.
Order the booklet today; it just costs $2. Order extra for those who have questions about this subject.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, August 29, AD 2011.
Related Articles:
Brief History of SBC Conservative Resurgence
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
Adrian Rogers on "Wit & Wisdom of Pastor Joe Brumbelow"
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
B. H. Carroll on Hyper-Calvinism
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Wit And Wisdom Of My Dad
Ancient Wine Production and the Bible
Roy Fish on Calvinism; part 1 of 2
Other articles found in lower right margin under Gulf Coast Pastor Articles (Labels).
Monday, August 8, 2011
Paige Patterson on Calvinism
Several years ago Dr. Paige Patterson spoke on Calvinism at the SBC Pastor’s Conference. An excerpt from Baptist Press follows:
PATTERSON: PEOPLE ARE ‘TOTALLY FREE’
Patterson began his segment by saying, to laughter, “The real question we are here to discuss today is whether or not you are here on your own free will."
He listed six areas in which he and Calvinists agree –- areas for which he said he has great appreciation. Calvinists, Patterson said: “usually lead very pious lives”; believe theology is important; generally are “very clear about the dangers involved in the charismatic movement; “understand the purpose of everything is to glorify God”; “never question the inerrancy of Scripture or the substitutionary atonement of Christ”; and “are crystal clear about the fact that salvation is by grace alone.”
But Patterson also said there are several areas of concern he has with “some Calvinists”:
-- the notion that if “you are not a Calvinist then you must be an Arminian.” He said he is neither.
-- the argument that “if you are not a Calvinist then you do not accept the doctrines of grace.” Patterson said, “I believe that salvation is by grace alone, and I'm not a Calvinist.”
-- the assertion that those who are not Calvinists don’t believe in the sovereignty of God. “I just happen to believe that God is sovereign enough that He can make a man totally free if He wishes to do so,” Patterson said.
-- “antinomian tendencies” present “in some Calvinists,” particularly on the subject of drinking alcohol. Antinomianism tends to overemphasize grace in relation to law.
-- a failure of Reformed pastors to be “completely forthright” with pulpit committees during interviews. “This is a concern not only about Calvinists,” Patterson said. “It is a concern about people who happen to be dispensationalists, like me. It's a concern about any position which you hold." There should be “full disclosure of what you believe and what you plan to do once you become the pastor of that church."
-- the “compassionlessness” for a lost world seen in “some Calvinists.” Patterson said what he “appreciate[s] so much about Dr. Mohler and many of my other Calvinist friends is that that emphatically is not true of them."
Patterson said he views the doctrine of election through the "foreknowledge of God." He also said he sees no biblical evidence for “irresistible grace” –- one of the tenets of Calvinism.
“If, in fact, men cannot resist the will of the Holy Spirit … then in fact salvation is coercive and a person does not have a choice about what he is going to do,” he said. "… I believe it is God's will that every human being be saved. I don't believe all of them will be saved -- narrow is the way, and straight is the gate.”
Patterson read two quotes he attributed to Presbyterian pastor R.C. Sproul: "God desired man to fall into sin. God created sin"; and "It is [God's] desire to make His wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures."
“It is impossible to find justice in that by any biblical definition of justice," Patterson said. “… This makes God, in some sense, the author of sin.”
He listed several scriptural passages -- 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9, Hebrews 2:9, 1 John 2:2 -- that he said support general atonement instead of the Calvinist tenant of limited (or particular) atonement. *
"To me, the references to the universality of the atonement are absolutely overwhelming in the New Testament," Patterson said. “… The Calvinist must fall back on the idea of two wills of God –- a revealed will and a secret will. The problem with the secret will, of course, is that it is secret and we cannot know about [it] at all. Not only that, [but] it pits the secret will in juxtaposition and over against His revealed will.”
Patterson challenged those in attendance, "My fervent prayer is that whatever your beliefs are about the sovereignty of God … you will join me in taking the Gospel to the ends of the earth.”
-from Baptist Press, June 13, 2006 by Michael Foust.
Dr. Paige Patterson is a graduate of Hardin-Simmons University and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (Th.M. and Ph.D.), he is the author of a number of books, and was twice elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He was one of the key leaders in the Conservative Resurgence that brought Southern Baptists back to their historic commitment to the inerrancy of the Bible. Patterson serves as president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas (swbts.edu).
One additional quote:
“The current trend in Southern Baptist life to imitate the Reformed movement is a major step backwards and must be resisted.” -Dr. Paige Patterson, at SWBTS Anabaptist Conference, 2012.
[The Reformers fought against Believer's Baptism by Immersion and actually persecuted, tortured, and executed Anabapists and Baptists in the 1500s and 1600s.]
* The Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement says Jesus died only for the elect. Non-Calvinists (or at least non-5-point Calvinists) believe in General or Unlimited Atonement. Unlimited Atonement means Jesus died for the sins of all humanity; of course, only those who believe are saved.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, August 8, AD 2011.
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
See Related Articles by clicking any of the "Labels" in this post, or by going to the lower right margin under Gulf Coast Pastor Articles (Labels).
PATTERSON: PEOPLE ARE ‘TOTALLY FREE’
Patterson began his segment by saying, to laughter, “The real question we are here to discuss today is whether or not you are here on your own free will."
He listed six areas in which he and Calvinists agree –- areas for which he said he has great appreciation. Calvinists, Patterson said: “usually lead very pious lives”; believe theology is important; generally are “very clear about the dangers involved in the charismatic movement; “understand the purpose of everything is to glorify God”; “never question the inerrancy of Scripture or the substitutionary atonement of Christ”; and “are crystal clear about the fact that salvation is by grace alone.”
But Patterson also said there are several areas of concern he has with “some Calvinists”:
-- the notion that if “you are not a Calvinist then you must be an Arminian.” He said he is neither.
-- the argument that “if you are not a Calvinist then you do not accept the doctrines of grace.” Patterson said, “I believe that salvation is by grace alone, and I'm not a Calvinist.”
-- the assertion that those who are not Calvinists don’t believe in the sovereignty of God. “I just happen to believe that God is sovereign enough that He can make a man totally free if He wishes to do so,” Patterson said.
-- “antinomian tendencies” present “in some Calvinists,” particularly on the subject of drinking alcohol. Antinomianism tends to overemphasize grace in relation to law.
-- a failure of Reformed pastors to be “completely forthright” with pulpit committees during interviews. “This is a concern not only about Calvinists,” Patterson said. “It is a concern about people who happen to be dispensationalists, like me. It's a concern about any position which you hold." There should be “full disclosure of what you believe and what you plan to do once you become the pastor of that church."
-- the “compassionlessness” for a lost world seen in “some Calvinists.” Patterson said what he “appreciate[s] so much about Dr. Mohler and many of my other Calvinist friends is that that emphatically is not true of them."
Patterson said he views the doctrine of election through the "foreknowledge of God." He also said he sees no biblical evidence for “irresistible grace” –- one of the tenets of Calvinism.
“If, in fact, men cannot resist the will of the Holy Spirit … then in fact salvation is coercive and a person does not have a choice about what he is going to do,” he said. "… I believe it is God's will that every human being be saved. I don't believe all of them will be saved -- narrow is the way, and straight is the gate.”
Patterson read two quotes he attributed to Presbyterian pastor R.C. Sproul: "God desired man to fall into sin. God created sin"; and "It is [God's] desire to make His wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures."
“It is impossible to find justice in that by any biblical definition of justice," Patterson said. “… This makes God, in some sense, the author of sin.”
He listed several scriptural passages -- 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9, Hebrews 2:9, 1 John 2:2 -- that he said support general atonement instead of the Calvinist tenant of limited (or particular) atonement. *
"To me, the references to the universality of the atonement are absolutely overwhelming in the New Testament," Patterson said. “… The Calvinist must fall back on the idea of two wills of God –- a revealed will and a secret will. The problem with the secret will, of course, is that it is secret and we cannot know about [it] at all. Not only that, [but] it pits the secret will in juxtaposition and over against His revealed will.”
Patterson challenged those in attendance, "My fervent prayer is that whatever your beliefs are about the sovereignty of God … you will join me in taking the Gospel to the ends of the earth.”
-from Baptist Press, June 13, 2006 by Michael Foust.
Dr. Paige Patterson is a graduate of Hardin-Simmons University and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (Th.M. and Ph.D.), he is the author of a number of books, and was twice elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He was one of the key leaders in the Conservative Resurgence that brought Southern Baptists back to their historic commitment to the inerrancy of the Bible. Patterson serves as president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas (swbts.edu).
One additional quote:
“The current trend in Southern Baptist life to imitate the Reformed movement is a major step backwards and must be resisted.” -Dr. Paige Patterson, at SWBTS Anabaptist Conference, 2012.
[The Reformers fought against Believer's Baptism by Immersion and actually persecuted, tortured, and executed Anabapists and Baptists in the 1500s and 1600s.]
* The Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement says Jesus died only for the elect. Non-Calvinists (or at least non-5-point Calvinists) believe in General or Unlimited Atonement. Unlimited Atonement means Jesus died for the sins of all humanity; of course, only those who believe are saved.
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, August 8, AD 2011.
Books on Calvinism, Predestination
Adrian Rogers on Predestination, Calvinism
See Related Articles by clicking any of the "Labels" in this post, or by going to the lower right margin under Gulf Coast Pastor Articles (Labels).
Monday, June 27, 2011
Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists: Calvinism, Revivals, Evangelism, Tracts
PHOENIX (BP)--The need for renewed evangelism, concerns about Calvinism and comments regarding North American Mission Board budget cuts were voiced during the annual evangelists-sponsored worship service prior to the SBC annual meeting.
The Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists' gathering June 12, with the theme "Ageless Urgency," featured three preachers: Eric Fuller, Harold Hunter and Brian Fossett.
"If there was ever a time that evangelism needed to be at the forefront, now is that time," COSBE president's, Braxton Hunter, told the assembly. "There is little concern for evangelism in our convention."…
Calvinism is "a big problem today in our country, and among Christians," [Eric] Fuller said.
"If you are a Calvinist in this place this morning, stop trying to convert Christians to Calvinism and begin sharing the Gospel with lost people so that the Lord can convert them to Christianity," Fuller said. "If you are a non-Calvinist this morning, stop talking about sharing the Gospel and get out there and actually do it.
Brian Fossett, a former COSBE president and member of Liberty Baptist Church in Dalton, Ga., preached from Ephesians 4:11, encouraging attendees to get back to "the three T's" of evangelism -- "tracts, training and testimonies" -- that he said would "revolutionize our churches."
Harold Hunter, president of Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary in Newburgh, Ind., and the father of Braxton Hunter, said in his message he is "burdened about the direction of our Southern Baptist Convention," noting that Southern Baptists baptized 17,416 fewer people in 2010 than in 2009, representing the lowest number of annual baptisms in 60 years.
"Evidently this new wave of trying to be relevant to the people in the bars on Friday night is not really working," Harold Hunter said. "Either what you do at your church and what this convention does is supernatural or it's superficial."…
"I hear those of Reformed theology say, 'Well, the founders of our great convention -- all of them were basically Calvinists,'" Hunter said, adding that for every Calvinistic founder of the SBC he could name three who were not.
"Let me tell you something: It was not the giants, be they Calvinists or not, who made the Southern Baptist Convention great," Hunter said. "It was the great host of people whose names are never mentioned: the evangelists, the missionaries, the small church pastors, the laymen, and the women, bless God."
Noting he wanted to "clearly preach about the ethics of those who aspire to leadership in our convention," Hunter said: "There is scarcely a week goes by that in my office I hear of some church fallen into disrepair because some man who was a Calvinist -- limited atonement -- and didn't tell the pulpit committee or the deacons until he became pastor, and then it split the church. I believe you ought to be honest. If that's what you are, then tell them that's what you are."
-bpnews.net, June 21, 2011, by Norm Miller and Art Toalston.
Read the entire Baptist Press article: COSBE Lifts Evangelism, Laments Funding Cuts
Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists (COSBE)
http://www.sbcevangelist.org/
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, June 27, AD 2011.
Other articles of interest:
Patriotism and Christian Worship
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died for All
Acts 29, Alcohol, and the Southern Baptist Convention
See more under Gulf Coat Pastor Articles (Labels) in lower right margin.
The Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists' gathering June 12, with the theme "Ageless Urgency," featured three preachers: Eric Fuller, Harold Hunter and Brian Fossett.
"If there was ever a time that evangelism needed to be at the forefront, now is that time," COSBE president's, Braxton Hunter, told the assembly. "There is little concern for evangelism in our convention."…
Calvinism is "a big problem today in our country, and among Christians," [Eric] Fuller said.
"If you are a Calvinist in this place this morning, stop trying to convert Christians to Calvinism and begin sharing the Gospel with lost people so that the Lord can convert them to Christianity," Fuller said. "If you are a non-Calvinist this morning, stop talking about sharing the Gospel and get out there and actually do it.
Brian Fossett, a former COSBE president and member of Liberty Baptist Church in Dalton, Ga., preached from Ephesians 4:11, encouraging attendees to get back to "the three T's" of evangelism -- "tracts, training and testimonies" -- that he said would "revolutionize our churches."
Harold Hunter, president of Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary in Newburgh, Ind., and the father of Braxton Hunter, said in his message he is "burdened about the direction of our Southern Baptist Convention," noting that Southern Baptists baptized 17,416 fewer people in 2010 than in 2009, representing the lowest number of annual baptisms in 60 years.
"Evidently this new wave of trying to be relevant to the people in the bars on Friday night is not really working," Harold Hunter said. "Either what you do at your church and what this convention does is supernatural or it's superficial."…
"I hear those of Reformed theology say, 'Well, the founders of our great convention -- all of them were basically Calvinists,'" Hunter said, adding that for every Calvinistic founder of the SBC he could name three who were not.
"Let me tell you something: It was not the giants, be they Calvinists or not, who made the Southern Baptist Convention great," Hunter said. "It was the great host of people whose names are never mentioned: the evangelists, the missionaries, the small church pastors, the laymen, and the women, bless God."
Noting he wanted to "clearly preach about the ethics of those who aspire to leadership in our convention," Hunter said: "There is scarcely a week goes by that in my office I hear of some church fallen into disrepair because some man who was a Calvinist -- limited atonement -- and didn't tell the pulpit committee or the deacons until he became pastor, and then it split the church. I believe you ought to be honest. If that's what you are, then tell them that's what you are."
-bpnews.net, June 21, 2011, by Norm Miller and Art Toalston.
Read the entire Baptist Press article: COSBE Lifts Evangelism, Laments Funding Cuts
Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists (COSBE)
http://www.sbcevangelist.org/
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, June 27, AD 2011.
Other articles of interest:
Patriotism and Christian Worship
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died for All
Acts 29, Alcohol, and the Southern Baptist Convention
See more under Gulf Coat Pastor Articles (Labels) in lower right margin.
Tuesday, October 27, 2009
Unlimited Atonement, Jesus Died For All
One of the five points or beliefs of Calvinism (aka Reformed Doctrines, Doctrines of Grace) is limited atonement. Limited atonement says that Jesus did not die for everyone. He shed His blood only for the elect, or those who would get saved. This is also called particular atonement.
While I agree with some aspects of Calvinism, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches unlimited or general atonement. In other words, the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all mankind, all humanity.
Unlimited atonement does not endorse universalism. Jesus died for all, but only those who receive Him as Savior will have their sins forgiven and be saved (John 1:12; 14:6; 1 Timothy 4:10; etc.).
The normal, natural meaning of a number of verses make it clear that God loves all, wants all to be saved, and that Jesus died for all.
Scripture that teaches unlimited atonement:
1. Who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29
2. For God so loved the world… For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. -John 3:16-17.
Notice how the word “world” is used.
3. I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. -John 12:47.
4. Christ died for the ungodly. -Romans 5:6.
Who are the ungodly? Both the elect and those who are not elect.
5. If One died for all, then all died; and He died for all…God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. -2 Corinthians 5:14-16, 19.
6. Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. -1 Timothy 2:4.
7. Who gave Himself a ransom for all. -1 Timothy 2:6
Compare with the meaning of “all” in these verses and in Romans 3:23 and Ephesians 1:11.
8. Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. -1 Timothy 4:10.
9. [That Jesus] might taste death for everyone. -Hebrews 2:9.
10. Not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9.
11. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. -1 John 2:2.
12. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! -Matthew 23:37.
Jesus would have saved them all, but they “were not willing.”
13. But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. -2 Peter 2:1
Even the false prophets were bought by Jesus. Christ is the Savior of all men, even false prophets. He has purchased their salvation. But only those who believe will be saved.
Some who believe in limited atonement point to verses that speak of Christ’s death for, and His love for, those who are saved. This in no way negates the other Scripture that says Jesus died for all, and loves all. Someone may say, “Bill loves Mary and Jeff.” That in no way means that Bill does not love anyone else. To say Jesus loves Daniel and Brittany, does not mean He loves no one else.
The above Scripture is the reason that most Baptists believe that Jesus shed His blood for everyone on the face of this earth. You can speak to any human on this earth and say with confidence, “Jesus loves you. He died for your sins and rose again so that you can be forgiven and made right with God. Jesus offers His salvation to you.”
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, October 27, AD 2009.
Related Articles:
Limited or Universal Atonement by Dr. David L. Allen; part 1 of 2
See other articles under Gulf Coast Pastor Articles (Labels) in lower right column.
While I agree with some aspects of Calvinism, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches unlimited or general atonement. In other words, the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all mankind, all humanity.
Unlimited atonement does not endorse universalism. Jesus died for all, but only those who receive Him as Savior will have their sins forgiven and be saved (John 1:12; 14:6; 1 Timothy 4:10; etc.).
The normal, natural meaning of a number of verses make it clear that God loves all, wants all to be saved, and that Jesus died for all.
Scripture that teaches unlimited atonement:
1. Who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29
2. For God so loved the world… For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. -John 3:16-17.
Notice how the word “world” is used.
3. I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. -John 12:47.
4. Christ died for the ungodly. -Romans 5:6.
Who are the ungodly? Both the elect and those who are not elect.
5. If One died for all, then all died; and He died for all…God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. -2 Corinthians 5:14-16, 19.
6. Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. -1 Timothy 2:4.
7. Who gave Himself a ransom for all. -1 Timothy 2:6
Compare with the meaning of “all” in these verses and in Romans 3:23 and Ephesians 1:11.
8. Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. -1 Timothy 4:10.
9. [That Jesus] might taste death for everyone. -Hebrews 2:9.
10. Not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9.
11. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. -1 John 2:2.
12. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! -Matthew 23:37.
Jesus would have saved them all, but they “were not willing.”
13. But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. -2 Peter 2:1
Even the false prophets were bought by Jesus. Christ is the Savior of all men, even false prophets. He has purchased their salvation. But only those who believe will be saved.
Some who believe in limited atonement point to verses that speak of Christ’s death for, and His love for, those who are saved. This in no way negates the other Scripture that says Jesus died for all, and loves all. Someone may say, “Bill loves Mary and Jeff.” That in no way means that Bill does not love anyone else. To say Jesus loves Daniel and Brittany, does not mean He loves no one else.
The above Scripture is the reason that most Baptists believe that Jesus shed His blood for everyone on the face of this earth. You can speak to any human on this earth and say with confidence, “Jesus loves you. He died for your sins and rose again so that you can be forgiven and made right with God. Jesus offers His salvation to you.”
-David R. Brumbelow, Gulf Coast Pastor, October 27, AD 2009.
Related Articles:
Limited or Universal Atonement by Dr. David L. Allen; part 1 of 2
See other articles under Gulf Coast Pastor Articles (Labels) in lower right column.
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